Entrepreneur Gary Elphick, co-founder of Disrupt Sports, reveals the manufacturing efficiencies most Aussie SMEs overlook, why not all feedback is useful, and the limitations of customer choice on profitability.
The two-time Optus My Business Awards winner joins the My Business team for a forthright discussion about his mistakes and master strokes in establishing his on-demand manufacturing business, including:
- The hidden efficiencies in foregoing offshoring production
- His experience “getting schooled” in business planning
- Why some customer feedback can be a waste of your time
- Commercial benefits of taking out industry awards
Plus much more!
Announcer: Welcome to the, My Business Podcast. Insight, inspiration and wisdom for business owners wherever they may be. Here are your hosts, Adam Zuchetti and Andy Scott.
Adam Zuchetti: Welcome to another episode of the, My Business Podcast, thanks so much for tuning in. Andy, today's guest was quite interesting when we spoke with him, wasn't he?
Andy Scott: Yeah, we've just been chatting with Gary Elphick from Disrupt Sports, really interesting story. Guy who's taken, what on the surface seems a simple idea, had a lot of challenges and is rolling it now up into a global business. Some great stuff out of the conversation we had today.
Adam Zuchetti: Yeah and he was very good and very open about those challenges. Some people can be a bit nervous about discussing things, but he was very open and honest and straightforward, which was really good. Here's the interview with Gary we recorded earlier.
You've got an interesting business, an interesting business model, I suppose. Can you talk us through Disrupt Sports and how it came about and what you guys are really trying to do?
Gary Elphick: It's been an interesting journey as well. Essentially, we're on `demand manufacturers for sports equipment. We turn mass manufacturers into individual manufacturers. You can design something up, we then make that individual item and ship it to you. It changes the whole world from going, we need to make everything in bulk and store it and warehouse it and display it and then you have to walk into a shop and buy something that's just been mass produced. We want to flip that on its head and make gear that's made specifically for you.
Adam Zuchetti: You are actually making everything from scratch? You're taking mass produced goods and then customising it your own way, or the customers way.
Gary Elphick: We partner with local manufacturers so everything we make is locally. We need to be partnered with the manufacturer, look at how they are going through their production process, and then we help integrate the software directly into what they do, so that they can make it from scratch. It's not about taking something and printing on it, but actually about making it from the raw materials all the way through to the end product.
Adam Zuchetti: How did you come with that kind of concept?
Gary Elphick: That's an interesting one. It was actually, it was a paying point. We were just sitting round and I was trying to get a new surfboard. I remember walking into one of the stores in Bondi and the average price was close to a thousand dollars. I was like, "How has it got to a thousand dollars?" The actual size and shape that I wanted, I couldn't get there, and I couldn't get it online, and it was going to be an eight week wait for it. You've got these big manufacturers making stuff and then we have to just buy it because we're told to buy it. If I'm spending that much money I should be able to get something that I actually want that's specific to me. Then set out on the journey to solve it, and their insight, and the challenges.
Andy Scott: What was the phrase that you used to describe what was Disrupt Sports was at the beginning?
Gary Elphick: On demand manufacturing.
Andy Scott: Did you make that phrase up?
Gary Elphick: I think so.
Adam Zuchetti: Quite catchy though.
Gary Elphick: But it's trademarked so don't use it now.
Andy Scott: Yeah, well that's what I wanted to ask because Disrupt, it's a buzzword at the moment, everybody's using it. What was the challenges that you faced from this very much traditional, we build ten thousand of these things and then we push them out to distributors, for what you're trying to do, which is actually quite unique?
Gary Elphick: Everything has been a struggle, right? You just try and solve one problem, we were trying to solve so many at the same time. I think the two main ones were getting people to understand that this existed, that they could basically have their cake and eat it. You've gone from the time where suits were custom made to you and then you were like, "Oh I can get one ten times cheaper because they're mass produced, but I can't have exactly what I want." And now, we're like, "Well you can have it at the same retail prices but you can make it yourself." That was the first challenge.
Then the biggest challenge is, working into manufacturers that have ... they're not necessarily the most tech savvy people that are out there, but they are incredibly good at what they do. Getting them to think about a new business model in a way that, "I know this is really difficult for you, but in the long run you can see how this is going to make your business more scalable, it will make it more longer lasting and enduring." And brings them up to the times. That was a ... and continues to be a big challenge.
Andy Scott: You say that you use local manufacturers and local producers. What drove that choice?
Gary Elphick: We originally thought, we were like, this is one of the challenges we've been through. We'll go offshore, everyone has to go to China and produce things. We were like, we'll do it half the price and you can design what you want, and we'll make it overseas. It just didn't work. We just end up with the biggest production headaches ever.
It was one of the biases. I thought local manufacturers will never want to work with us. They're these old school really cool guys shaping my boards. What we actually realised was once we'd gone through that massive change we stopped the business and went, "Okay, how can we make this better?" When I spoke to a couple of them I was like, "Please don't kill us?"
We explained to them what we were doing, and what we realised was that they were really hungry. Their business was getting taken away by mass production overseas manufacturing. They were just hungry enough to take a chance on what we were doing, and that's what we needed. The quality of the product went up tenfold, the speed of the delivery went up tenfold. Suddenly we were like, "Oh, this is the way that it's meant to work. This is actually how it works."
Adam Zuchetti: What about the cost element though? Everyone talks about the cost with local manufacturing?
Gary Elphick: Of the cost and value, there's two separate things. What do you value in what we do? You value the fact that you can design your own, you value the fact that you can get something that's been locally made. With the same price as you buying it in the store, a mass produced board from overseas in the store. Whilst the cost element goes up because you're being more efficient you can cut down on ... there's not warehousing, there's no insurance, there's no multi-distribution along the lines. All those things add up into the product cost. By eliminating those, everyone maintains a good profit margin, including the manufacturer, and you get the product you want for the same price. I don't think cost is necessarily item cost, it's the whole cost in the supply chain.
Adam Zuchetti: That's interesting, because I don't think that a lot of people look into that, they just look at the face value cost. Okay, it's cheaper to produce overseas, we're going to do that. You're saying well actually if add up all those different elements, it's not so different.
Gary Elphick: Looking back at what our returns rate were when we were working overseas. We were looking at close to 20% returns, right? You think unit cost is this, yes it's a lot cheaper but when you factor in the returns, and the fact that the people having to complain about it, and you've got customer service people. That stuff all adds up. We're now at under a quarter of a percent, which is pretty much unheard of in any retail manufacturing. It shows you the level of the quality raises, which then means you don't need as many staff, which means that it's more efficient, which then means that they make more stuff, that we make more. The whole system starts to get some traction along the way.
Andy Scott: What first got you into the sports that you choose? What custom gear can I get from you?
Gary Elphick: It was, "What sports do I like? What sports do I want to go and make?" That was how it originally started. Then it just progressed with people like, "Oh, are you guys doing this yet?" We were like, "No, do you want that?" We were just, send some surveys out and just responded to those people. At the moment we're open for surf ... We've got 60 products now, surfboards, skateboards, snowboards. You can design your own yoga mats, ping-pong tables, footballs, AFL, NRL baseball bats, Foosball tables. It's all locally manufactured, all done on demand, all design your own. Come buy some stuff from us.
Andy Scott: That's what I wonder, with I suppose, the design process that you've done, was it a choice to make it eminently scalable across lots of different products? Or has that just been a fortunate ...
Adam Zuchetti: Or customer feedback potentially?
Gary Elphick: I've had two small businesses before. One went terrible. We got schooled by another company, and went, "That's a really good idea, we're going to copy that and make a lot more money out of it." The second one went reasonably well, and we learned a lot about distribution and manufacturing through that process. On this one, I was like, "Now it's time to take that big swing. How do we make this into a globally scalable business as opposed to a lifestyle business?" It could have gone either way. We could have gone, "Right, this is a nice lifestyle business." Or taken a much bigger risk and take that global. That's what we decided to do, so check back in a couple of years time and ask me.
Andy Scott: Tell us about the business that you got schooled in? What was that about?
Gary Elphick: I was working in marketing at the time. Had this big issue with ... We were putting out-of-home ads into bus shelters and into shops saying, "Like us on Facebook." People had to then go onto their mobile and go Google your Facebook page and find you and then try and like you. It was basically Beacons, NFC, and QR codes that you could remotely manage from a dashboard.
We thought it was amazing, it was a really cool technical product, and we would then give you the platform and we would sell you the chips. I think we bought them for 20 cents and it would cost you $25. We were like, "This is it. Branson eat your heart out, we're done."
Then the company that came along went, "That's a really good idea, we're going to copy that, and then we're gonna sell it to the brands for a lot of money per campaign." And we were, "That's a much better idea than ours." We stopped licking the envelopes at night and went, "We'll put it down to experience, and move on."
Adam Zuchetti: What's the biggest lesson that you learned from that?
Gary Elphick: Business model. The business model that we looked at, how many of these tags are actually going to be in existence in the world? What's the value? When you talk about costs, what's the costs versus value of what was going on there? Even though you might make a huge markup on something, if it's still really valuable to the end customer then it's a great thing to be in.
I think throughout all of it you just take every single lesson, right? You take every single lesson. I think that's what ends up with people that ... I don't know if this one will be the last one. I don't think it'll be the last one, but whether or not it goes as well as I hope it to, we'll never know. Or, we won't know for a longtime. We'll take every learning and then move that into the next one, and move that into the next one.
You kind of get paid to do MBA, that's the way I look at it, so.
Adam Zuchetti: I want to come back to your sales channel. You sell through your website, obviously. You also have partnerships with certain retailers, and things like that. Now, you were saying that the local manufacturers were quite hungry to get onboard with something new, and something different to help their business. Retail is another industry that's struggling here in Australia, but did you have resistance from them initially trying to sell your products through them?
Gary Elphick: Yeah. We've got three in particular channels that we work in now. One, which is our own website, the second one, which is our brand through third party sites. The third one is we white label the manufacturing for other brands now, which has been a super interesting journey for us.
I was like, "Great, we've got to get the people in to either get them to understand how you make something." Like what's the reliability of the product, and all that side of things. Integrating into retail solves a challenge for us, which is, how do you get bigger scale? It's also a challenge for them as well. These retailers are looking at how do you create retail into an experience, not just a place that you come and transact with something. I think we created that pretty well.
We've got VR headsets you can put on now and design stuff. We've got interactive screens that you can design stuff. For the retailer we didn't hold any stock in there. It's a very small amount of floor space when you look at the dollars per square metre that we make. It's more than any of their other concessions that are in there.
It is a challenge. I think especially in Australia when they've got a particular business model where you pay rent to be in there. This is how it works, you store your stuff here. There was some resistance to that. We just kept chipping away and try and find a time to be in there and try and de-risk it for everybody and show an upside. Once you get one, you can then get a few metrics around it, which you can then take to a bigger one, and then store that one. You just roll it on from there. Most of them worked, and some of them haven't.
Then we moved on to once we've had that is, how do we integrate our manufacturing into third party sites? If you are a large technology company, or a media brand that has lots of films coming out. I can't tell you who they are, but, those ones, if you want to go and buy something. You wanted to buy a skateboard with this particular media brand on it you can now go on and purchase that on their website. Their API feeds to us, we manufacture and ship it out to you. For them, they don't stock anything, they get to leverage all of the media that they've got. We obviously make our margin on the manufacturing.
Adam Zuchetti: It's difficult to get the first one onboard, but how did you actually get them across the line?
Gary Elphick: We showed them the traction we were getting. We showed them the product that we were getting. It was helpful that a couple of other customization companies had been there before in the past and done particularly well in retail as well. Again, it's just finding the ones that are hungry. Who's hungry enough to actually disrupt themselves and find a new way of working a new business well for them.
Andy Scott: You talk about the customization of the gear that me as a punter could buy. Customization's been around for quite a long time. I think, we were taking beforehand about English soccer clubs and premier league teams. For as long as I can remember, yeah you can get ...
Gary Elphick: You get your name on the back.
Andy Scott: I've got my name on the back, it's customised. Is it really customised? I mean, it looks the same as everybody else's. What were the challenges in educating, I suppose, customers that this is real customization? Not just, yeah we put your initials on it and it's, air quotes, customised.
Gary Elphick: Yeah. I think there's a couple of different things in that. That to me is personalization, so it's taking an existing product and putting something on it. Which has still got a massive market for it. Then you've got customization of the product itself, and then you've got the manufacturing on demand piece. Where you sit on that spectrum, it depends on the business model.
For us it was about figuring out how we can let you get what you want, but in the easiest possible way. I always talk about the challenges we had when we first started. We spent six months building an engineering platform. We were like, "You can now design up your own surfboard as an engineer in full CAD." This is the most technically brilliant thing I've ever been part of. We put it there and we waited, and waited, and waited, and waited, and we had seven people use it. This was over a month. We were like, "This doesn't work." The boards they'd made were terrible. I've still got one of them sitting in my room at the moment. It's 10 foot long by about three and a half inches thick, it is a boat. This thing doesn't work. It just does not work.
The more we learned from this. People were, "This is brilliant, but it's far too technical. I want you to guide me through the process. I want you to tell me what I need as well. I want to be part of it, but I want to be secure in knowing that there is a good shaper behind the scenes that knows what they're doing."
That was a big challenge for us as well. It constantly is, we're constantly listening to feedback from people, like what are the new features that they're looking for, what's not quite right in what they're doing at the moment. I think it's that decision making process to ... When it's a big enough issue for a lot of people, then you make the impact, rather than trying to listen to each, and individual people as you go.
Andy Scott: I think we all like to think we like to make decisions, but a lot of the times I think we like a lot of the decisions taken away from us and just given some options. Is that something that you found out?
Gary Elphick: When you enter a restaurant, right? They give you one page of 10 items, and I will pick one out of those. If they give you a booklet you get this sort of anxiety, like analysis paralysis over everything, that's 100% what we found as well. How do you get to the point really quickly? Give them all the options, but don't over complicate the process, guide them through it.
Andy Scott: How much difference is there between the amount of choice that someone choosing a surfboard would want, someone choosing a ping-pong table would want? And wanting other lessons completely transferable across these different products?
Gary Elphick: I think the overall learning is, make it really easy for people. Make it fun and make it really easy for people, make sure you back it up with quality and 365 day free returns. Everything that de-risks this for them, so they go, "Oh, I might as well give it a go." That I think is. Each product individually is very different and different set of users for it as well. Every time we bring on a new product the team are out there researching and looking at interviewing people as well. It's an interesting one.
Adam Zuchetti: Okay Gary. Coming back to white labelling, that's something that some business owners are quite happy to do, as you've done. Others want to steer clear of it, and they think, "Look, I want the control over my brand, and things like that." What really made you decide to pursue that?
Gary Elphick: We sat down, and I try and do this every six months, with a couple of the partners and go, "Okay, what are we actually doing? Where's our strengths lay?" You can be really good at one segment of something, and that can really scale. If you try and do everything you're boiling the ocean, right? We look at it and go, "What are we really, really good at? Are we good at the in store piece? Are we good at the front end customization? Are we good at the manufacturing and logistics piece? What's our best bit?"
What we realise is that the real IP in what we do lays in on the manufacturing. When we go out to make that up you completely ... That's what we are, that's what we're really good at. We're really good at individual manufacturing and distribution. There's probably brands that are better at selling the brand side of things than we are. We'll really focus on this being our business, and everything will be powered by Disrupt, as opposed to us being the forefront.
Again, you've got to take these big risks sometimes. I don't know whether or not it'll work in the long run, but it's where we see the solid business model.
Adam Zuchetti: Has it been a good revenue source? You can essentially outsource it. Not so much outsource it, but it is a revenue string that sits there and then allows you to concentrate on your own branded sales.
Gary Elphick: Yeah, we actually look at the other way round. It's been taken off that much that it's now coming up for 70% of our business. I think the gamble's working. It also helps then provide fuel into the branded side as well. People feel confident that we make a really good product and we back it up with a lot of guarantees. Yeah, it's working.
Adam Zuchetti: Have you had other business leaders come to you about the on demand manufacturing side of things, and try and get you to talk them through how they can do it in their own particular industries?
Gary Elphick: You get more so on customization than on the manu- ... Everyone one goes, "Oh, it's such a thing at the moment. We really want to get into it." It's not something that you can dabble your toes in, it's not changing around the store, it's not like changing the front end on a website. It's a complete supply change. It's all the way from manufacturing through to logistics, through to in store POS, through to online. The whole thing is about that piece of the business, about on demand manufacturing.
There's a small group of us around Australia, there's maybe eight or nine businesses that are in it. We share the same challenges, same learnings. It's really good that Australia's getting really well known for the centre of excellence for this, which is pretty cool as a tiny little island.
Adam Zuchetti: What are some of those common challenges that you guys are facing?
Gary Elphick: Manufacturing is always going to be your challenge. How do you create really good products, really fast, and get it out there to the customer? That's why we're focusing on that piece as our core, because that is the biggest challenge. Some of them like what you see on screen, how well does that replicate what you're actually going to get as a product? Talking about a 3D lifelike renders or like 360 photography on product. How does it as a green on a screen, how similar is that to a green that you're going to get on a product? That's a very small change, but quite a significant one if this is a team colour, or something like that. That's an issue you have to try and solve.
Like I said before, de-risking it for people, this is very new. It's a very out there thing, even though we all know about it, it's only a subsection of society that know about. Trying to de-risk everything you do with that.
Then, logistics, it's a huge logistical challenge. If you're using multiple manufacturing sources to multiple people around the world in four or five different countries. You're trying to manage all that when a certain logistics company get hacked and all their data goes missing. The customer doesn't care that, that certain logistics company have been hacked. Like, "It's awful, right up there on us. Where's my stuff? Where is it? You promised me in this time, you're not delivering." Trying to control that whole supply chain is an interesting one.
Andy Scott: You mentioned Australia's been seen as sort of an area of excellence for this sort of stuff. Are you selling a lot overseas now?
Gary Elphick: Yeah, we opened up in the UK eight months ago now. Then we opened up an office in LA five months ago, and then last week we opened up an office in Chicago as well. I'm not getting any sleep at the moment.
Andy Scott: No, that's fair enough. From saying that, you're not running things from Australia and then trying to export it, you're trying to pickup what you've done in Australia, in effect, transplant it into different countries.
Gary Elphick: Yeah. Wherever we are, we focus on local manufacturing. For the US market we'll partner with local manufacturers and local retailers, and local brands, UK the same, and here. We're sort of creating a global expansion playbook that we can then execute, hire someone, then we go in a new country, that's go.
Andy Scott: Have you found a lot of cultural differences between ... Not necessarily the customers in those places, because I imagine that experience is quite common, but in terms of the different manufacturers, and the different suppliers, and people that you have build within different countries? Is there a lot of cultural differences between there and here?
Gary Elphick: Yeah, you think cultural differences, I look at UK, Australia, US, we're quite similar, we all speak the same languages. There's cultural differences between the 52 states in the US. Every single state is slightly different. Colorado's obviously massive in mountain biking, and snowboarding. California's a huge surf place. Up at the mid-west, Cornhole, probably never heard of that one before, massive for a lot of the guys down south as well. It's kind of learning all about those differences in the product SKUs.
In about the language you use with people, about what that really matters to them as well. Different things matter to different people. You take a set a guidelines, as the way we look at it, and then just tweak them for each place, and understand a bit more about it, and then move on.
You record that and that makes you learn better for the next time, and the next time. We're still learning, right? We're learning every single day, so it's fun.
Andy Scott: Have you learned through research, research, research? Or just walking in there with a bit of confidence and swagger and occasionally walking out with your tail between your legs?
Gary Elphick: If you ask my investors I'll tell them it's exactly the research that we've learned that by. Most of the time it's surfboard underneath an arm and a bit of a note about what's going on. I think that works. People like to see you're having a go as well. So, it's like, "Well, we'll give it a go. Help us along the way." I find people are good, so I've done some research.
Andy Scott: I've got to ask, what custom gear are they doing in England? I know they surf, but it's not that big in England, is it?
Gary Elphick: I don't know, down south in Cornwall, but it's not a huge market. Snow sports is pretty big, football, soccer is great. Ping-pong. Ping-pong is going off there. There's all these bars now you can go into for darts and ping-pong, you book out a darts' lane. My dad plays darts, that's not something that young people do. But, yeah, it's going off again. That's an interesting one that's learning. We've been doing quite a bit in darts for them.
Andy Scott: Have you thought about taking some of the things that are popular overseas and then, I suppose, cross pollinating them into your other markets? Trying to educate certain people in ... I'm thinking particularly bars in Australia, "Hey, this is really popular, you should start doing this. We can give you a nice fancy one."
Gary Elphick: I've got this list in the back of my book of all these things we pickup when we're overseas, because you see a lot of businesses. It's less so now, but it used to be when we startups first happened over here. It's like, "What's happening in the US? Let's replicate it here." There's a new one that's happened now, it's like a pup-pup, in Newtown, you can't get in there for love nor money. There's these bounce places now where you do trampolining, I think it's a bar, but maybe ... Those are finally here now. We're seeing a lot of that stuff coming from the US, and coming from the UK as well.
We look at it in more like, who we're working with overseas and having those multi-distribution points means that if you get into one brand or one retailer. It's really easy to help them replicate it and they help you replicate it overseas. That's been a surprise to us, but a really positive one.
Adam Zuchetti: By expanding overseas, and things like that, you're obviously capturing new markets and new sales. How do you fundamentally avoid being seen as a novelty business and drive repeat sales?
Gary Elphick: Yeah, it's an interesting one. We get asked that all the time. "Do you guys just print on stuff?" We're like, "No, we make it from scratch." It's a fine line, because we make product for athletes and for enthusiasts, and we also make product for brands on there. It's trying not to be gimmicky in that way. We're helped out by a lot of professional athletes that choose to use our equipment. A lot of top-tier brands that choose us as their manufacturing partner, that already make a lot of other sporting equipment as well. Those ones, we try and promote out there to show that we're actually a serious sports business, not just making something cheap.
Adam Zuchetti: Last year you took out a couple of the Optus My Business Awards. I think it was Start Up and Young Business Leader Of The Year, was that right?
Gary Elphick: I don't know about the Young, but yeah.
Adam Zuchetti: What do accolades like that really mean for the business?
Gary Elphick: Awards themselves don't make the business, but they do really help us. Specifically in this market, as well. We're quite risk averse sometimes in Australia, so when you can go and talk about your business, and put them on a footer and show people. We're not just a couple of guys thinking about something. This is a serious business. We've got decent traction, and we make good product. It adds to that level of, "Okay, well maybe we should trust them, what they do." That really helps.
I think it helps the staff as well. Staffs are hard, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. You're asking other people to take a gamble on your gamble. I love our guys. For them to get an award shows that everything that they're putting into it. It rewards them to go, "Actually, we're not wasting our time here. What we're doing is actually for a big reason. The big goal we're trying to get to is recognised." I think that really helps.
Adam Zuchetti: Alright. Gary, just to finish us off here. What would you say the three biggest pieces of advice that you've received, you've come across, you've read, that kind of thing, that's been really inspirational and has made a direct impact in your business?
Gary Elphick: I think the first big learning is always ... We took lots of research, right? I think a lot of people were sitting on a good idea, and they're thinking about something, and they do a lot of analysis. You can't learn that much by reading about it. You've just got to get out there and do it. Do it, fail, move, pivot, do this. There is no substitute for just getting out there right now and doing it. People wait too long, and my logo's not perfect, I need to get my website. You don't need a website to sell something. Go find a customer, ring someone up, grab a coffee. Go speak to them, get some first-hand acknowledgement of what you're doing. I think that's the most important thing, just get off your butt and do it now.
The second one would probably be, feedback's not worth anything unless it's attached to a dollar. When you're trying to ask for feedback from a customer, "Oh, I'm not sure that would work." Or, "I'm not sure that would work." Or, "Have you thought about this." Try and pre-sell to those people. I'll use an example from us. Someone was like, "Oh, why are you guys not doing snowboards yet?" "Well, would you buy a snowboard from us?" "Yeah, cool. We'd love to design one up." "Right, well, why don't you prepay us for half of that snowboard, design it up and then once we get 50 of you, then we'll go and make the production for it." We did. If people care enough about it and they really want it, ask them to part with some dollars. They de-risk it for yourself. I think too often people are very forthcoming with observations and with feedback. Unless it's attached to a meaningful dollar relationship, then it's not worth anything.
The third one is, this is a long journey. They say the average projection startup is close to eight years. It's a rollercoaster, it really is like high, highs and low, lows. You've got to look after your body and your mind whilst you do that, or you'll just burnout. You can't operate at 100% all the time. You've got to take timeout. You've got to take timeout for your family, and to have personal relationships, because that's part of being human, as well as being in a startup. Just juggling those two things. You don't have to be all in 24/7 and you shouldn't be either, because it's not good for you.
Adam Zuchetti: They're really good insights actually. They sound more like first-hand experience than ...
Gary Elphick: Yeah, well I've done it enough times now, alright? Learn the hard way, learn from my mistakes is what I say.
Adam Zuchetti: Andy, anything to add?
Andy Scott: No, nothing to add. Gary thanks for coming in today.
Gary Elphick: No, thanks for having me.
Adam Zuchetti: Yeah. No, good to have you in the studio, Gary. What's your website so that people can get in contact with you?
Gary Elphick: You can go to disruptsports.com and design your own equipment, or if you're a brand you can go to branded.disruptsports.com.
Adam Zuchetti: Alright, fantastic. Thanks so much for joining us.
Gary Elphick: Thanks guys.
Adam Zuchetti: Great chat with Gary there.
Thanks for tuning in, we'll see you again next week.